View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:30 am





Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ] 
 EVO shift star question 
Author Message
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
I took this pic from the Factory Pro pdf installation instructions for the ZX-14 EVO shift star. The instructions say to remove the shift star bolt and pull the OEM shift star out. I tried and the whole drum turned like the transmission was trying to shift from N to 2nd gear.

Should I wrench counterclockwise until the drum locks and then continue to turn until the bolt breaks loose? This will not damage anything downstream in the transmission?
Image


Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:00 pm
Profile
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:35 am
Posts: 3458
Location: Saint Petersburg FL
No it will not hurt a thing , you can't put the amount of pressure that would do damage ..


Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:55 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
Thank you Smokin. I figure it was about 20 ft lbs to break the gear positioning arm bolt loose so the star should be about the same.


How about LokTite? The SM and Factory Pro both recommend it be used on the gear arm bolt and the star bolt. It's about 32° F here on a good day and the bike's in a non heated garage. Past experience tells me LokTite does not harden in cold temps. Does seem to harden after the weather warms up.

It does not appear that there is any factory installed thread locking agent on these bolts. I hate to use LokTite in the engine out of fear it could contaminate. Think I should get some high temp LokTite and wait until the weather gets warm before startup or should I just torque the bolts?


Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:38 am
Profile
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:35 am
Posts: 3458
Location: Saint Petersburg FL
I didn't use any type of locking agent on mine , never had a problem ... :thumbs:


Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:54 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
Awesome. Thanks again for info and thanks for quick reply!


Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:21 pm
Profile
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:35 am
Posts: 3458
Location: Saint Petersburg FL
Rook wrote:
Awesome. Thanks again for info and thanks for quick reply!
:thumbs:


Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:36 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
The factory did use locking agent on the shift star bolt. I almost never apply LokTite every single time I reinstall an external bolt so I feel letting the factory thread locking agent have a second go is fine on the inside where the bolt is torqued. No problems on the shift star but that bolt required a lot more force to break than the gear positioning arm bolt.
Attachment:
thumb_shft.drm.cam.thrd.lok_1024.jpg
thumb_shft.drm.cam.thrd.lok_1024.jpg [ 173 KiB | Viewed 140 times ]


Here's where i ran into a problem. I got the gear positioning arm bolt started smoothly and then levered the arm to compress the spring so the bearing wheel dropped into the Neutral notch on the shift star. Everything looks good. The bolts going in but it's going in stiff ....like tightening against a spring. Is this thing going to click, or what? The the wheel lifts up out of the Neutral notch as I'm turning clockwise??? WTF? The torque wrench clicks but the arm has turned all the way back. Same torque wrench I used for the shift star bolt, same 106 inch pounds. Somehow, the arm and the spring are getting sandwiched together too tightly----or something.
Attachment:
thumb_evo.ger.pstn.arm.faulty.nstl_1024.jpg
thumb_evo.ger.pstn.arm.faulty.nstl_1024.jpg [ 320.27 KiB | Viewed 140 times ]


Did the gear positioning arm fall off of the shoulder on the bolt getting tightened between the collar and the shoulder...doubt it, the button head looks tight against the arm--no gap.

OR is the collar with 49000 miles worn from use making it too narrow to accept a brand new spring and gear positioning arm? Looks like the spring coil is deeper than the collar in this pic.


But the OEM spring's coil looks just about the same. Any thoughts?


Attachments:
thumb_ger.pstn.Rm.clr.sprng.assy_1024.jpg
thumb_ger.pstn.Rm.clr.sprng.assy_1024.jpg [ 202.63 KiB | Viewed 140 times ]
Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:08 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
I have an idea but I'd like to hear your's first.


Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:21 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
hint, hint... (final two steps of this guys tutorial)

http://www.kawiforums.com/how-tos-faqs/ ... -star.html


Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:49 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
Figured out the problem. BENT BOLT. I do not know if it was me or the factory. I tell you that bolt did not require a huge amount of power to break loose and I doubt that would bend it anyway being that it was all the way in the hole when I broke it loose. So when I tightened it, the the gear positioning arm must have fallen off of the shoulder on the bolt and bit into the arm as it got squashed between the collar and the shoulder. I guess that was my fault for not knowing the arm fell off. So now, the hole in the arm is squashed and does not fit the shoulder on the bolt. That's why it was sticking as i torqued the bolt. I'm not blaming it on Factory Pro. I must have bent the bolt when it tightened into the detent arm.. I bent the bolt and screwed up the hole in the arm....all my fault..

oh well, hope they will sell me a new gear position arm and i need a new OEM bolt. kind of depressing but i am mostly just glad i did not damage the threads in the crankcase and also that this mystery has been solved. crap. :(
Attachment:
thumb_messedup.ger.pstnRm_1024.jpg
thumb_messedup.ger.pstnRm_1024.jpg [ 215.52 KiB | Viewed 140 times ]


Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:17 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:59 pm
Posts: 783
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Their $10 new from Kawa and the bolt is $5


Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:30 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
Thanks, Ozzy. LOL hold onto your hat.....a new Factory Pro detent arm with ceramic bearings shipped in the US with a 10% discount is $93. $5 for the bolt from Cheapcycleparts. I upgraded to ceramic bearings in the detent arm so i imagine a regular steel bearing one would be about $73. Over a hun USD to ship abroad. Oh well that is the price of education.

You can see in my pic the detent arm is not centered on the pivot. Looks good and flat but if you inspect very closely you see it's off center. I'm going to recommend installing the arm first. Then lift it up with a screwdriver blade and pop the star in. Tighten the star bolt last. The reason is that with the star installed first, it's very , very hard to put the arm in without having cocked out to the RH side. It's blocked by the star. So if it's cocked when it goes in, there's a good chance it won't stay on the shoulder which I'm sure was what happened to mine. Then I went and torqued it and that bent the bolt because half of the shoulder bit over one edge of the hole in the arm and the other half of the shoulder dropped through the hole. When I saw the button head wobble as I removed it I was really afraid the threads were fooked. Just the bolt is bent and the arm is ...i guess I consider it ruined. LOL I'm sure a lot of shops would just file it out and put it in without saying anything.


Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:23 pm
Profile
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:35 am
Posts: 3458
Location: Saint Petersburg FL
Rook wrote:
Thanks, Ozzy. LOL hold onto your hat.....a new Factory Pro detent arm with ceramic bearings shipped in the US with a 10% discount is $93. $5 for the bolt from Cheapcycleparts. I upgraded to ceramic bearings in the detent arm so i imagine a regular steel bearing one would be about $73. Over a hun USD to ship abroad. Oh well that is the price of education.

You can see in my pic the detent arm is not centered on the pivot. Looks good and flat but if you inspect very closely you see it's off center. I'm going to recommend installing the arm first. Then lift it up with a screwdriver blade and pop the star in. Tighten the star bolt last. The reason is that with the star installed first, it's very , very hard to put the arm in without having cocked out to the RH side. It's blocked by the star. So if it's cocked when it goes in, there's a good chance it won't stay on the shoulder which I'm sure was what happened to mine. Then I went and torqued it and that bent the bolt because half of the shoulder bit over one edge of the hole in the arm and the other half of the shoulder dropped through the hole. When I saw the button head wobble as I removed it I was really afraid the threads were fooked. Just the bolt is bent and the arm is ...i guess I consider it ruined. LOL I'm sure a lot of shops would just file it out and put it in without saying anything.
Yup that is what happened . Fact is I did the same thing but didn't bend the bolt .. I caught the problem as I was running the bolt down ..Something didn't feel right so I stopped .. All I had to do was file the hole just a bit and reinstall it ... Mine wasn't as bad as yours and was an easy fix once I saw what I had done .. Happens to the best of us ...lol :) :vroom:


Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:58 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
haha!! Now I feel better! That's two. Novice and expert mechanic /racer, same trouble. I think that's a definite "arm first, star second." I do a lot of tutorials especially for newbies at zx14ninjaforums. I'll post a link here when i get this one finished.


Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:57 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
Got my new detent arm from Factory Pro. Gotta be honest....just want to help my ZX-14 brothers out in the future....not too terribly impressed by the ceramic bearings. If they were AS GOOD as the steel, I wouldn't mind but..

Got the detent arm with ceramic bearings and looks good but far as i can tell without having installed either yet, the ceramic bearings are inferior to the steel bearings. The steel bearings revolve a lot more when i spin the wheel with my finger and they feel perfectly smooth when I put a little pressure on them. The ceramics spin fine but they stop almost immediately—not sticking but more like the wheel is lighter and has less inertia or something. Both detent arms weigh .45 oz so I don’t think that’s it (maybe I should have checked the weight in grams). I swear I can feel just a tiny bit of resistance (like a minute scratch) when I put finger pressure on the ceramic bearings and turn the wheel. It’ll work fine but the steel is better and costs less as far as i can tell right now.

Maybe they need some time to wear smooth or something…not that I plan on ever going in there to remove and test it! I'm sure it doesn't matter much either way but these things are not cheap for a piece of steel and some ball bearings. I mighta put the OEM back in if it fits with the EVO shift star but doing similar finger tests, the ceramic is better than OEM. Steel bearing Factory Pro Arm wins hands down.


Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:19 pm
Profile
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:35 am
Posts: 3458
Location: Saint Petersburg FL
good info ! :thumbs:


Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:21 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
I think this will remain a matter of debate for ever---ceramic v steel bearings.

Marc from Factory Pro emailed me right back. He responds within hours and even after business hours--so kudos to him on customer service. Marc told me the following:

-The steel bearings might be a little looser.

-Ceramic bearings are harder and lighter (i somehow seem to be able to feel that) and transmit any microscopic surface imperfections more than steel but this will go away as the ceramic surface is broken in.

-The ceramic balls should polish the races and definitely the nylon ball retainer (steel bearings have steel retainer).

He added that either Factory Pro detent arm, ceramic bearing or steel is far better than OEM and I definitely can tell that is true. The OEM detent arm wheel has a grindy feel to it when you turn it against your finger.

The ceramic balls should get better with age, steel can only get a little worse, maybe. I think this is going to be almost imperceptible to most. I guess I will get a steel bearinged one for the busa just to try to compare. I know the one with steel bearings definitely feels much better than OEM by the finger test.


Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:12 pm
Profile
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:22 pm
Posts: 40
Location: East Texas
I cant speak to the bearing issue but I will say that the trans in my `09 C14 felt down right agriculture like prior to my installing the EVO shift star. It helped it considerably, time well spent installing it.
I haven't felt the need for one in my `12 14r. :dunno:


Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:46 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
My 08 ZX-14 shifting is fine. It clunks into first of course. The EVO is not going to cure that. I have heard almost unanimous rave reviews on the EVOs with the 14 though. Just one guy I recall saying it was no big change...the throw in the shift pedal seemed shorter. I would think that alone would be a nice change for me using the foot quickshifter. I can see the EVO has cams like a rollercoaster and the OEM shift star is has pointy cams like a star. The detent wheel is going to roll over the EVO a lot smoother. Also the EVO has a higher set Neutral notch. If accidentally shifting into Neutral is a problem, it should be less likely with the EVO.

I ordered the wrong bolt for the detent arm.. Damn, another week. LOL I paid $15 with shipping for one bolt. Was the only part I ordered. :x


Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:23 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
...and now I hear that $15 bolt is backordered. Hope to see it by Spring.


Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:10 pm
Profile
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:35 am
Posts: 3458
Location: Saint Petersburg FL
Rook wrote:
...and now I hear that $15 bolt is backordered. Hope to see it by Spring.
Try calling Adams , he should have a ton of the laying around .. Also you can try Northernkaw on here , he has a ton of parts laying around ..OSR is a member also , he builds a lot of engines so he may have one also ..


Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:23 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
Thanks, Smokin. I will try one of them.


Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:24 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
northernkaw saved the day! I purchased a detent arm bolt from him and received it yesterday! Thanks, northernkaw!

I'll wrap this thread up in few days after I get the EVO reinstalled.


Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:47 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
I don’t think there is any problem with the shift star but I fear I may have damaged the transmission installing it. The clutch is not back in and I did a test of the shifting.

The transmission is in 2nd gear where it ended up after torquing the shift star bolt. I cannot shift down to N. The pedal just won’t move at all. It’s solid. The shifting mechanism won’t budge.

I can shift up however. This should not be possible. The bike should not go into third gear unless it is running.

From there, the transmission will not shift up again. It will shift back to 2 but as was the case from the start, it won’t downshift to N or to 1.

Don’t mind the retracted claw in pic 3. The claw on the shift arm is extending as it should now that the oil in it has rubbed around from repeated test shifts.

I have tried making the shifts while turning the rear wheel but that has no effect on the shift performance.



Starts in 2nd gear.
Attachment:
A.shiftest1.jpg
A.shiftest1.jpg [ 1.33 MiB | Viewed 228 times ]


Shift pedal won’t downshift at all. Not even a mm. It does shift up very nicely to 3 (even though it is not supposed to shift to 3 without the motor running). Nice crisp click into gear—but notice the detent arm wheel is not positioned at the center of the lobes as it should.
Attachment:
A.shiftest2.jpg
A.shiftest2.jpg [ 1.3 MiB | Viewed 228 times ]


Will not shift up again (and it was not supposed to go past second gear anyway) but does click back to 2.
Attachment:
A.shiftest3.jpg
A.shiftest3.jpg [ 1.29 MiB | Viewed 228 times ]


From here, the cycle repeats. Still won’t shift down to N, will only go up to 3rd gear without fully dropping into the low spot between lobes as shown in pic 2..


Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:22 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:59 pm
Posts: 783
Location: Brisbane, Australia
if it is in 2nd it will shift to 3rd with out the engine running running. just wont go to 2nd from neutral with out moving unless you remove the 3 lock out balls.
try rotating the input shaft and or the output shaft while moving the gear lever maybe the dogs just aren't lining up.

It may have been possible to damage a shift fork by torquing the star bolt while it was all in the engine but unlikely


Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:35 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
Thanks for answering another cry for help, Ozzy. From what I can tell, the transmission was NOT shifting at all! I heard a snappy click but that was just the detent arm on the shift star. The shift star was turning in its socket at least part of the time I was shifting the pedal. The star was not engaged to the dowel pin. I did test it by twisting first but apparently, the pressure of the detent arm spring is enough to make it go cockeyed unless the star is torqued down first. I was putting the arm in first because it is so difficult to get the arm in after the star and I did destroy that first arm I got with my kit because it was not in on center with the bolt. Tried putting the star back in tonight and the arm pushed it crooked again---obviously that is not the way to do it.

Tomorrow I will take the arm out and get the star in first. Then the arm goes in second...carefully! Hope all goes well so I can get the clutch in and fill er up with oil. Then we'll try those gauges!

I was able to grab the shift star and shift the transmission to N and then to 1 by hand once I got everything else out of the way. I don't think there is any damage to anything, I just had the parts in crooked. You would never know. It didn't look the slightest bit crooked but I could feel a gap with my fingers.


Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:38 pm
Profile
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:35 am
Posts: 3458
Location: Saint Petersburg FL
I think you will be fine once you get it all together correctly ... As far as damage to the trans .... Well it would take a jack hammer to damage that trans , no way you did any damage to it installing the shift star .. :thumbs:


Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:21 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:59 pm
Posts: 783
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Rook this is what works for me.

Shift drum, star, dent arm with spring, spacer and screw. Slowly tighten the screw and flip the spring into position. Continue tightening the screw till the roller is all but down on the star. Use a large screw driver to release the roller from the star and continue tightening.

Never been an issue for me but it may well be a lot easier with the engine up on the bench rather than in the bike. You been caught out before so you know what to look out for. Just take your time and if in doubt pull it back out. Start again and just keep doing it untill your happy with it.


Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:57 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
Thanks guys. I got it. Not a mark on any of the parts. Just was installed crooked. I lifted the detent arm with a rag covered screwdriver as I had done previously and just made extra certain the star went ON the pin. I lifted the arm a couple times and twisted the star to verify it was on the pin while I tightened the bolt. Also helps to feel around the inner edge with your fingers because it is just about impossible to see if it is crooked. Shifts very easily now.

Thanks for the help on this one! I can't wait ti try it.....soon! Could fire this baby up in the next day!


Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:28 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
OK, on to the next problem:

I can see the pressure plate won't hold any pressure at all on the stack. almost like I am missing a plate but hat's not it. The pressure plate is making contact with something (I presume the bolt holes in the hub) but the pressure plate is not even under the fingers in the basket.
Attachment:
A.gap.aftr.Nstl.cltch.plAts.jpg
A.gap.aftr.Nstl.cltch.plAts.jpg [ 976.76 KiB | Viewed 180 times ]


I am sure there were 10 fibers and 9 steels that went in--the same ones that came out. They were soaked in oil for a few days prior to installing.

Installed, the stack measures 2 an an eighth inch in height same as what I measured before installing. That clutch pack is all there.

Spring seat and judder spring were not removed so I'm sure those are in properly.

I have pressed the pusher in a bit farther but the pressure plate does not follow it. The pressure plate is being stopped by something. The clear sign is that the pressure plate is not under the fingers like it was before it was removed.
Attachment:
A.cluch.oil.filhol.jpg
A.cluch.oil.filhol.jpg [ 335.54 KiB | Viewed 180 times ]


Has this happened to anyone before? Others have had the problem but I see no solution in the threads I searched.


Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:08 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
Never mind the false alarm, guys. IDK exactly what it was hanging up on but all I had to do was lift up abit under the spring plate and it popped right into place.

I have read threads about a situation like this since 08. Last guy had this happening on his buggy with zx-14 engine and he was having his first two plates fly out.
Maybe it is possible to tighten the spring bolts down with the plate hung up and then the plates slip out. Anyone reading this in the future, just push up under the spring plate until it pops into position under the fingers of the basket.


Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:53 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
OK Initial impression of the EVO Shift Star--------------------------------
WA-wa-waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Pretty damned much the same as stock.
Maybe if you have a worn stock shift star, the EVO might seem a lot better but just a casual ride down the street and I can't really tell any dif. True, this was the first time I rode the bike since it had the stock star and shift arm in there 10 months ago but I've owned this bike 9 years. I could go two years without riding it and if there was something dramatically different, I'd know it.

This was just my initial impresssion. If I don't miss any shifts at high rpm with the quickshifter, I'll say it's worth it but so far, normal riding not at all necessary and I had 49000 miles on the stock shift mechanism. Fun project though if you're into that sort of thing. Oh the EVO is .3 oz heavier. That's the only change I see so far.


Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:12 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:59 pm
Posts: 783
Location: Brisbane, Australia
I feel it makes the shifts a lot smoother


Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:12 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 231
Almost everyone says that, Ozzy and that's why I was so excited to finally try this. Maybe I will feel differently once I really ride the bike. Right now, it has wires hanging out all over and no fairings so I have not gone fast. Sure felt good to ride it after so log though.


Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:48 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 34 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
[ Advertise on ZX1441R.com ]

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software for PTF.